Curse

Hawkian · Mar 25, 2011, 12:48 AM // 00:48

I gotta say- I'm something of a unique case in that I just started playing my dervish coincidentally a week after the change was made. There's no "old" dervish for me to compare things at all.

That said, I find my derv to me the most fun I've had playing any class in an RPG. The teardown mechanic is satisfying as hell, and skill synergy options are wonderful. I've settled on a D/E supertank with Kinetic Armor (thank you ArenaNet for an unlocking system which meant I only had to get him to Lion's Arch to get it and not Fisherman's Haven) and Stoneflesh Aura, along with one of the helpful Dervish defensive enchantments if it's going to be a really damage-heavy trip. He is an absolute beast in the early areas of Kourna and I don't even have an elite on him yet.

Lopezus · Mar 25, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15

I'm talking pve exclusive:

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All avatars in general - needed another skill to maintain, now we have an extra PVE skill on our bar. Avatar of Balth actually has offense capacity (srsly how is +40 armor and IMS in PvE worth an elite slot AND a PVE slot when old conviction did all of that + block?), Avatar of Grenth, and Melandru and had huge energy problems, yet they pretty much remained the same functionality post update (melandru is still pretty much immune to conditions, plus extra health and armor vs the most dangerous source of damage in PvE). Dwayna's remains pretty much the same, and Lyssa can spam enchants, and in crowds, perform on the fly energy management.

Not really, old avatars required using EA but were a lot stronger then present ones, if there were possibilty to choose in game between old and new, 90 % builds would consist old ones as it would be so clear that new are suboptimal.

No one ever will be using EDA or Reaper's Sweep in PvE, complelty pointless elites.

Generally you are confirming what i've stated, just applied different perspective, but doesn't change a fact that old dervish builds did everything with better efficiency then new ones but noone even used them. If people are happy with new dervish, that's sweet. I'm not going jump from joy b/c "hey check this out dervish can spread conditions now" b/c people cared only about AoHM,Ascan and high numbers before...

FoxBat · Mar 25, 2011, 05:26 PM // 17:26

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Originally Posted by Lopezus

Not really, old avatars required using EA but were a lot stronger then present ones, if there were possibilty to choose in game between old and new, 90 % builds would consist old ones as it would be so clear that new are suboptimal.

Self heal, or party heal?
Self immunity to conditions, or party immunity to conditions?
IMS, or adrenaline gain + burning?

Bandwagon · Mar 25, 2011, 06:03 PM // 18:03

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Originally Posted by Lopezus

No one ever will be using EDA or Reaper's Sweep in PvE, complelty pointless elites.

And no one ever did use them in PvE pre update anyway, your point lol?

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Generally you are confirming what i've stated,

Be more specific, my wording was written with a lot of thought to ensure there was no miscommunication between my point and yours, at the moment it looks as if your just talking out of your tush.

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just applied different perspective, but doesn't change a fact that old dervish builds did everything with better efficiency then new ones

When one of the kids that I take care of tells me that 1 + 1 = 3 I playfully slap him on the head and we have a good laugh because we both know that is not the case, you however communicate as if that is a fact, there is no helping you, swim in ignorance, move on from this game, continue thinking that the dervish update was all a big nerf and live on. I have been providing examples you have not offered hard evidence, which is the only thing that you can use at this point that can sway one to think that the Dervish elites are weaker then before.

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.....but noone even used them.

That is the stupidest statement you have made yet lol, you assume and assume and assume. Maybe you should grow teeth and back up your argument with "bite".

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If people are happy with new dervish, that's sweet. I'm not going jump from joy b/c "hey check this out dervish can spread conditions now" b/c I cared only about AoHM,Ascan and high numbers before...

Fixed this for you, it was pretty inaccurate since I highly doubt you possess the resources to make such broad statements factual (and ergo relevant).

Lopezus · Mar 25, 2011, 06:52 PM // 18:52

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nd no one ever did use them in PvE pre update anyway, your point lol?

My point is : It was idiotic to nerf them.

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That is the stupidest statement you have made yet lol, you assume and assume and assume. Maybe you should grow teeth and back up your argument with "bite".

I could but what's the point, of course Onslaught and VoS were buffed but with other skills being nerfed, builds stills falls flat. Grenth's grasp is not even worth mentiong in pve, and so on. New builds are weaksausce no matter how you present them. I certainly don't cry b/c x/D was nerfed and if it required trashing AScan and AoHM that's fine by me. I don't miss them. Mysticsim change is stupid and hardly a buff. Flash enchant mechanism is good imo.

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Self heal, or party heal?
Self immunity to conditions, or party immunity to conditions?
IMS, or adrenaline gain + burning?

I'm talking pve exclusive, effects are weak and require designed build to power them, old ones defnietly needed buff but still i would take them any day as their effects were decent and left room for utility even with loosing slot for EA.

So what i would like to see ? Avatars reverted but with slight buff in energy cost and necessity for EA removed, flash enchants should stay of course, useless elites reworked in pve terms, mysticsm reverted but with slight buff maybe. The rest changes can stay, as i say i won't cry for high damage Ascan dervish build. Then i would have fun making new builds and playing my dervish.

Str0b0 · Mar 25, 2011, 07:02 PM // 19:02

I'm not sure how the change to AoG wrecked any AoG builds. They lowered the life steal by all of 6 points... 6 points shouldn't be enough to break a build unless the build was bad in the first place. I still use my AoG build and it still functions as intended with virtually no loss of efficacy. The Dervish is much more useful following the original skill change and this latest round of balance changes isn't all that damaging really..

Cuilan · Mar 26, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

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Originally Posted by Lopezus

Not really, old avatars required using EA but were a lot stronger then present ones, if there were possibilty to choose in game between old and new, 90 % builds would consist old ones as it would be so clear that new are suboptimal.

I vanquished areas and did various Zaishen quests with either a player, hero, or myself with an Avatar of Dwayna build. Past one did nothing special for general PvE and skills that interacted nicely with that avatar were...wait none existed.

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Originally Posted by Lopezus

Generally you are confirming what i've stated, just applied different perspective, but doesn't change a fact that old dervish builds did everything with better efficiency then new ones but noone even used them.

Nobody used them because they either didn't know about them or realized that Zealous Vow were more useful. Perhaps provide an old build and explain how and why that avatar build did everything better than current builds that allow you to at least maintain energy.

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Originally Posted by Bandwagon

And no one ever did use them in PvE pre update anyway, your point lol?

No people used them, but on really random builds.

Str0b0 · Mar 26, 2011, 01:42 AM // 01:42

I do have to say I'm not happy with the EDA change. I liked the old EDA better. Spamming blind was great in HM. I could hold an entire enemy front line solo with my old EDA build. Overall though I think the update helped more than it hurt.

pingu666 · Mar 26, 2011, 06:48 AM // 06:48

much prefer the changes tbh, the old style of preloading enchants before each fight, (with cast times) and then having little/no energy as the native management is rear loaded wasnt that great :/

Lopezus · Mar 26, 2011, 10:05 PM // 22:05

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I vanquished areas and did various Zaishen quests with either a player, hero, or myself with an Avatar of Dwayna build. Past one did nothing special for general PvE and skills that interacted nicely with that avatar were...wait none existed.

Huh, well old AoD removed hexes and heals on skill usage which was awsome, it didn't force your build to enchant juggling for weaksausce benefit, you didn't have to slap any enchants on your skill bar, you could have fun with different builds and skills form different professions as it actually interacted perfectly with any skill....

Cuilan · Mar 26, 2011, 10:26 PM // 22:26

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Originally Posted by Lopezus

it didn't force your build to enchant juggling for weaksausce benefit, you didn't have to slap any enchants on your skill bar, you could have fun with different builds and skills form different professions as it actually interacted perfectly with any skill....

Well the AoD build I used didn't have any skills to tear down enchantments, as they either ended early from no attribute points or from being triggered. Post a build (or more since that's what you're leading us to believe) that interacted with the avatar pre-skill change.

Lopezus · Mar 26, 2011, 10:35 PM // 22:35

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Well the AoD build I used didn't have any skills to tear down enchantments, as they either ended early from no attribute points or being triggered. Post a build (or more since that's what you're leading us to believe) that interacted with the avatar pre-skill change.

whatever skill you name, as old AoD removed hex and heals you whenever you used a skill.

Cuilan · Mar 26, 2011, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Well, anyone can throw together a bunch of skills. Provide a build and explain how it's better than this or this. You can't seem to give at least one build.

Lopezus · Mar 27, 2011, 09:43 AM // 09:43

You don't get it ,do you ? Old avatars were unique elites b/c they provided benefits no matter what build you have on, you weren't restriced to dervish enchantments, which is weak ,boring and stiff gameplay...

FoxBat · Mar 27, 2011, 01:42 PM // 13:42

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Originally Posted by Lopezus

You don't get it ,do you ? Old avatars were unique elites b/c they provided benefits no matter what build you have on, you weren't restriced to dervish enchantments, which is weak ,boring and stiff gameplay...

Let's not confuse the former with the latter two. Pious Assault and AoHM firing armor-ignoring AoE is not exactly weak, pretty much every dervish build abuses those two anyway.

Any point you had also vanishes if you concede that changing AoHM was fine. It's the only thing that made old derv scythes pump bigger numbers compared to pious spam.

Lopezus · Mar 27, 2011, 01:58 PM // 13:58

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Any point you had also vanishes if you concede that changing AoHM was fine.

Was fine if it was only possible way to give edge to scythe using dervish over scythe sins or warriors.

Josiphos · Mar 27, 2011, 03:16 PM // 15:16

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Originally Posted by pingu666

much prefer the changes tbh, the old style of preloading enchants before each fight, (with cast times) and then having little/no energy as the native management is rear loaded wasnt that great :/

The new update ROCKS. Period, end of Story.

I think I was the only person on Anet who actually ran a D/x. But I did it for the challenge; it was obviously an underdog build.

Post update...Jesus. Steamroller comes to mind. Flash enchants are powerful and undercosted. Someone mentioned above how mobs are toast and that is an understatement. Having the ability to crack armor, burn, cripple, bleed and blind...oh and toss in a spammable DW with wounding strike and Sand Shards...

WHoever was saying the old way was better, you just don't like change. This way is a blast!

Edit: I can't decide which build is better: Pious Renewal/AoHM or Avatar of B/staggering/shards/etc

Korain · Mar 28, 2011, 07:31 AM // 07:31

I took a few month hiatus from Guild Wars. When I came back....hell, a week ago, I hadn't even known about the update. I went out into an area to capture an elite and noticed a fire building up behind Chilling Victory and went "wtf...". At the time I was frustrated, as most people seem to be.

After taking a few days to sit back, then talking the update over with an alliance mate, I have come to appreciate it. It's like playing a new class all over again, and I actually enjoy it.

I've come down to a few conclusions for builds.

Do you want it to be primarily energy or adrenaline based?
Do you to throw up enchantments for the initial effect, follow by a teardown ability? Do you want to throw up enchantments for the full effect (initial and fade ability)?

Those are the 2 primary ones in my opinion, and once you can answer those, you can start answer other questions like 1v1 builds, aoe/adjacent damage builds, tank builds, etc.

The Josip · Mar 28, 2011, 09:51 PM // 21:51

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Originally Posted by Josiphos

WHoever was saying the old way was better, you just don't like change. This way is a blast!

Blast, as in more fun - perhaps.
Stronger? Perhaps in defense, but not offense.

Overall, my impression is that my old Me/D build ("Psychic Scythe") was dealing more damage and overall being more efficient than D/x I made after recent Dervish update.

Sure, now you have nice enchantments. You have Mysticism giving you armor. But you lose AoMH, you lose Asuran and BoH (as do other physicals). You lose those faster attacks (Eremite, Mystic). This is a huge amount of damage lost.

I do believe all that was good to make Dervish more fun and physicals weaker and more balanced. But if we're purely debating about what was better, then IMO old version was, at least in HM.

Josiphos · Mar 30, 2011, 04:16 AM // 04:16

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Originally Posted by The Josip

Blast, as in more fun - perhaps.

This is the bottom line for me. I could care less if it vanquished Ferndale 5 minutes faster. I'm not playing for the accumulation of wealth.

As for the old style, its gone...so we'll never have it back. Might as well move on. Speaking of that:

The last few days I've been playing my Pious Teardown after switching from my Balthazar Avatar. I can honestly say they are a toss up in terms of which is faster/better. When pious works, its a beast. IN terms of fun factor though, its annoying me. Lots of precasting and making sure I don't strip AoHM. a few times it got stripped by enemies and then I was screwed for the battle. Lots of button pushing/mashing and its getting irritating.

I dunno. Balthazar build has the advantage of inflicting cracked armor, bleeding, blind and cripple in addition to +armor, adrenaline and nearby burning.
I remember having more fun with that.